Helton, Bird Attacks and Icons Redux
Here we go, lots of thoughts, live from St. Louis:
FIRST, I am aware that someone hijacked this blog for a day and, posing as the author, predicted that Todd Helton would hit .400. He was up to .361 at one point, and looking good, but he’s been cold the last couple of weeks and is now down to .322. Some of you more observant mathematicians out there might notice that .322 is actually quite a bit less than .400.
Am I giving up on the prediction? Hell no. I mean, if I really cared at all about my dignity, I never would have made such a ridiculous prediction to begin with. Plus I will point out that, Helton has often been a July and August hitter. In 2000, he had a 27-game stretch where he had 48 hits in 98 at-bats (.490 batting average). He does that now, he’s up at what, .373 or so and … OK, yeah, that’s still quite a bit less than .400, isn’t it?
SECOND, when I mow my lawn, birds attack me. Well, they don’t actually attack me, but they fly around me and swoop down near me like kamikaze jet fighters. Does anyone else out there have this issue? Is this some sort of Hitchcock thing?
I first thought that the birds were protecting some sort of nest, which made me feel a bit of reluctant admiration for them. But as time has gone on it has become obvious that there’s no nest. They are flying around me waiting for grubs/moths/bugs/whatever-the-hell-birds-eat to hop out of the grass so they can swoop down and have breakfast. In other words, I live in the neighborhood with the freaking laziest birds on Planet Earth. I’m imagining two conversations going on simultaneously:
My wife: “Are you going to mow the lawn?”
Me (looking outside): “It might rain.”
My wife: “There aren’t any clouds out.”
Me (looking outside): “Looks kind of hot out there.”
My wife: “So you’re not going to mow the lawn?”
Me: “Well, as soon as I finish this blog.”
My wife: “You’re not doing one of those stupid 5,000 word blogs are you?”
Me: “Well, some people care about my views about Todd Helton.”
My wife: “Go mow the lawn.”
And at the same time:
Female bird: “You gonna get some food?”
Male bird (looking at my lawn): “That guy’s not mowing yet.”
Female bird: “So?”
Male bird (looking at my lawn): “When he mows the food just pops up to me.”
Female bird: “I hope that guy gets a BB Gun.”
THIRD, we owe you a baseball icon update. Funny thing, I posted that icon blog literally minutes before I went to do a book signing (yes, this is still supposedly a book promotion blog – have you bought The Soul of Baseball? Nice review in The Washington Post over the weekend and a story in the Omaha newspaper. You don't care at all, do you?). So I posted that blog, got in my car, drove to the bookstore (about 20-minute drive), there was a group of people waiting, I said a few words, and one of the first guys in line walked up with a book and said: “Eddie Mathews.”
I said, “Excuse me?”
He said: “Eddie Mathews. He’s the Milwaukee icon. Not Hank Aaron.”
He had already read the thing. That’s blog dedication.
Here’s the updated list:
Arizona: Still nobody. The job is open for Brandon Webb.
Atlanta: I chose Dale Murphy, and I really did not get much negative feedback on that. There are still a lot of Murphy fans out there, and a whole new generation of kids are learning about him as the cranky old guy who complains about steroids every other day. ... A couple of Atlanta people said the Braves' icon should be Hank Aaron, and I’m OK with that too, especially because (not to give anything away) it appears Henry might lose the job in Milwaukee. One person nominated Phil Niekro, an outstanding choice. But I think Murphy still plays.
Baltimore: Cal Ripken Jr. still edges out Brooks Robinson. You know, Baltimore is really an iconic town – you have those two, John Unitas, Babe Ruth, Edgar Allen Poe, H.L. Mencken, all those drug dealers on “The Wire.” I’ve always loved Baltimore; I used to hope that I would someday write a sports column there. And then, the Browns became the Ravens … anyway, the Orioles don’t seem too much fun to write about these days.
Boston: I think it’s still Ted Williams, though there was a vote for Johnny Pesky, and also one for Yaz. There were quite a few Boston folks who took issue with my overall Boston icon list as well – most of them saying it was absurd to put Larry Bird ahead of Jack Kennedy. Plus, I left Red Auerbach off my list, which was a pretty bad oversight.
I was going to put an updated list here, but I think I’ll wait for Sports Guy to weigh in.
Chicago Cubs: I picked Ernie Banks. There were those who pushed a bit for Ron Santo. Hey, I’m not from Chicago. Santo’s a wonderful guy, he was an outstanding player, he’s stayed prominent in the community, he’s been a broadcaster, he’s dedicated himself to charities, and he should be in the Hall of Fame as far as I’m concerned. If you Chicagoans want him as your icon, I fully respect that. But to me, if you have Ernie Banks, you might want to use him.
I will offer one other Cubs thought: I think the Cubs should do a little something special this year to honor Buck O’Neil. I appreciate that I’m coming at this from a pretty biased position … but look at all Buck did for the Cubs. He signed Ernie Banks and Lou Brock (I realize that Banks’ signing is a bone of contention among some – Buck was not officially working for the Cubs when Banks signed – but Banks says Buck signed him, and that’s good enough for me). He also signed Joe Carter (who led to Rick Sutcliffe) and Lee Smith (who had five 30-save seasons and led to Calvin Schiraldi, which admittedly is not as good). He talked Billy Williams into coming back to baseball after he quit. He was the first African American coach in baseball 45 years ago for the Cubs. I’m not saying they should rename Wrigley Field for him. But they might have a Buck O’Neil Day or something like that.
Chicago White Sox: Nobody like my Hawk Harrelson suggestion. That speaks well for the good people of Chicago. He gone. Ozzie Guillen, Frank Thomas and Nellie Fox were all mentioned, and again, I am unwilling to argue with White Sox fans about their team. I think Nellie Fox seems like the best choice. Frank Thomas just seems to have kind of a checkered Chicago career. And Guillen, well, I like the guy. I really do, even if he ripped me in the papers once. In fact, I like him MORE because he ripped me in the papers once. I think he’s very entertaining. I really do. I just like my icons to be a little less, uh, insane?
Cincinnati Reds. I chose Pete Rose, and I just don’t think this one’s negotiable. Some players so tower over a town and a team that they are icons whether you like it or not. I know many Reds fans would prefer to have Johnny Bench as the team icon or Joe Morgan or Tony Perez or Big Klu or the guy who smokes the cigar on the logo for Montgomery Inn Ribs (good ribs, folks … good ribs).
But I think for better and worse, Pete’s the guy. He IS Cincinnati. He’s just too big to deny.
(A Reds fan and brilliant reader has already pointed out the obvious logical conundrum of saying that on the one hand I'm open to fans choosing their own icon and on the other hand trying to saddle Cincinnati fans with the cretin that is Pete Rose. I suppose I feel a bit more qualified because I lived in Cincinnati for three years. And also Pete GREW UP in Cincinnati, doubling his icon-power. But as usual the reader is right, and while I think most Cinti folks would vote Rose, I certainly could not blame anyone for choosing Bench, Morgan, Klu or Larkin).
Cleveland Indians: Nobody really argued with my Bob Feller choice, but I don’t think anyone feels all that great about it either. Feller’s a mixed bag.
I was asking a buddy in Cleveland how close LeBron James is to cashing in as Cleveland’s all-time icon – sports or non-sports (surpassing Feller, Jim Brown, Bernie Kosar, Wes Craven, Harvey Pekar, Drew Carey – of course – Alan Freed, Paul Newman, Nine Inch Nails, Jim Lovell, Jesse Owens, Don King, John Rockefeller, Tom Hanks – sort of -- the guy who kidnapped Patty Hearst, the doctor who inspired “The Fugitive,” Tim Conway, Phil Donahue, Joe Walsh, Eric Carmen …)
My buddy thinks that if LeBron takes the Cavs to a championship and a couple more Finals, he will be that guy. I agree. Of course, it would help if more than 23 people watched the NBA Finals.
Colorado Rockies: I said nobody. And nobody sent in any suggestions. If Todd Helton hits .400, the job’s his.
Detroit Tigers: I chose Kaline. My buddy Michael Rosenberg from the Detroit Free Press sent me this email …
“Kaline is definitely No. 1.
If you could combine Tram and Whitaker, they would be No. 2. Unless you count Ernie Harwell. Willie Horton is actually up there because he tried to save the city in 1967. (Unfortunately he failed and nobody has tried since.)
For all sports, I'd put Joe Louis and Yzerman up there with Kaline. Louis is probably No. 1. Dumars is actually on the list because of his success as an executive.
I don't hear many people talk about Ty Cobb in any way, probably because nobody who is alive ever saw him play and then you have to get into the whole "yes he was a bigot who appears to have murdered a guy, but ..." conversation, and that can get awkward. They don't talk about Hank Greenberg, either, which brings up a question I have never thought of until now: what did Ty Cobb think of Hank Greenberg? I'll have to look into that.”
I must admit being surprised that Michael did not mention Isiah or Barry Sanders.
Florida Marlins: I say nobody yet. Miguel Cabrera has a chance.
Houston Astros: I chose Craig Biggio and no one contradicted that. A couple of people want Bagwell and Biggio as an exacta, and that’s legit.
Kansas City Royals: I chose George Brett, and heard from several people around town who thought Frank White deserved higher status because he grew up in KC. I love Frank … but I don’t see it. Every big town has room enough for more than one icon, and Frank is on Kansas City’s Mount Rushmore. But I think if you’re picking one, you pick George.
I also saw the comment from someone who complained that I put Buck O’Neil too low on my icon list. I mention this because I would say it’s the first time in my life that someone has charged me with UNDERRATING Buck O’Neil.
Los Angeles Angels at Whatever: Several people are ready to give the mantle to Tim Salmon, who played all 14 years with Anaheim. Hey if you Angels’ fans want Salmon, I have no problem with that. I think you could argue that Salmon is the most underrated player in baseball history. Did you know the guy NEVER played in an All-Star Game? I mean that’s mind boggling. EVERYBODY makes the All-Star Game. Ken Harvey was an All-Star. Mark Redman was an All-Star. Jose Rosado was a two-time All-Star. And these are just Royals.
I’m not going to take the time to go player by player, but at a glance, Tim Salmon appears to have by far more career homers (299) than any non-All-Star ever.
Los Angeles Dodgers: We’ll stick with Sandy Koufax, though Vin Scully’s an excellent choice. My favorite Scullyism on Game of the Week would be when he would do his “Deuces wild” routine. He would say, “Deuces are wild, two balls, two strikes, two outs here in the second inning.” But often he would go a few steps further – he would just go deuce crazy – “Deuces wild here, two balls, two strikes, two men out, two on base, there are two dogs running around outside the stadium, two very pretty young ladies sipping iced tea down the first base line, two chins on Tigers manager Sparky Anderson, two corns on my left foot and two radio producers telling me that John Wockenfuss has struck out to end the inning.”
A friend says that his favorite Scully moment came during a football game when he said, “Handoff to Ken Willard, and he runs into a team photo of the Los Angeles Rams.” A version of this was later used in “Brian’s Song” and my buddy insists it came first from Scully. The best part, though, is that many years later my friend saw Scully and said, “Do you remember when you said that about Ken Willard running into the team photo of the Los Angeles Rams?”
Scully, the ultimate gentleman, replied: “I said that? That’s pretty good!”
Milwaukee Brewers: OK, I heard from a whole bunch of Milwaukee people – starting with the very nice guy I met at the book-signing who apparently is hitting the refresh button on this blog over and over – that Eddie Mathews is the real Milwaukee icon and not Hank Aaron. I heard it from enough people (something like nine) to make me believe that this really might be how Milwaukee feels.
Hey, Eddie Mathews was a great player, and he did hit more homers for Milwaukee (493) than Aaron did (420). Me, personally, I take the home run king. But that’s just me. Also Laverne is definitely more iconic than Shirley, though Shirley was cuter.
Minnesota Twins: Kirby Puckett. There was a rumbling for Killebrew, but I think Puckett wins by landslide even with all of his post-career problems.
New York Mets: Tom Seaver. Nobody else.
New York Yankees: Babe Ruth. Nobody else. The better question is: Who is bigger in New York now, Mickey Mantle or Joe DiMaggio? I say Mantle because of the restaurant and the fact that many from DiMaggio’s era are gone. But I’m not sure about that.
Oakland: Rickey Henderson seems like the right choice. A couple of people pushed for Reggie Jackson … I just think his iconic status came out of New York and the three-home run game and Mr. October and all that.
Philadelphia Phillies: Another change. I’ve been told by numerous Philadelphia fans that Mike Schmidt is most definitively NOT the city’s baseball icon. Most go with Richie Ashburn, although my friend Bob – a big Phillies fan from the 1960s – says that Robin Roberts does have quite a bit of iconic power for fans of his generation. In any case, everyone concedes Schmidt’s greatness and all, but I’m told he just was beloved in Philly. He was not quite a Philadelphia guy.
Again, I’m not willing to argue with Philadelphia fans about their own team. Richie Ashburn it is. He was a terrific player who four times led the league in on-base percentage and played a really big centerfield. He added to the status as an announcer. It’s a good choice … What about Harry Callas, by the way? What a voice.
Pittsburgh Pirates: There were actually a couple of people in comments and emails who objected to Clemente – they thought Pops Stargell deserved the honor or Bill Mazeroski. Hey, those guys are great. But come on. It’s Clemente, right? This was one of two or three I was most sure of when I wrote the original.
San Diego Padres: Tony Gwynn in a runaway.
San Francisco Giants: Willie Mays in a runaway, though surprising support for Juan Marichal.
Seattle Mariners: Another miss on my part, apparently. I thought it would be Junior Griffey, but I guess there are a lot of bitter feelings in Seattle about his leaving. It seems like Edgar Martinez is a much more popular choice.
Someone brought up Ichiro too. Excellent choice. He could be the guy in a few years.
St. Louis Cardinals: Musial. He’s the whole point of this list. Someone said that Albert Pujols is only a few seasons away from surpassing Musial, and that may be so – Pujols is amazing. But I’m still thinking about Musial as a possible book project.
Tampa Bay Devil Rays: Nobody. Just nobody.
Texas Rangers: Someone offered up Charlie Hough, who is a good choice. I think David Clyde probably best represents the organization. But to me, the guy is still Nolan Ryan.
Toronto: I chose Dave Stieb, but several people wrote in for Joe Carter, who actually lives not too far from me. I think Carter’s a great choice – he did hit the big home run. We can switch to Carter if that’s what you Toronto folks want.
Washington Nationals: Several people did not like me picking Jesus Colome. OK, if you really want a Washington baseball icon, Walter Johnson is certainly the right choice, though my Dad’s favorite player Frank Howard isn’t bad either. Neither of them played for the Nationals. If you want a Washington Nationals icon, you might consider Walt Wilmot who in 1889 led the National League with 19 triples. He also hit nine homers (eighth in the league) and stole 40 bases. That’s Walt Wilmot, ladies and gentlemen.
Montreal Expos: We didn’t pick an Expos icon, and that was an oversight. I have to pick one because as far as I’m concerned the good people of Montreal got le’screwed by MLB. My first thought was Steve Rogers, but I think it’s probably either Gary Carter or Andre Dawson. They’re both excellent choices, but I’ll go with Carter because when I close my eyes I still Dawson in a Cubs uniform while I see Carter in an Expos uniform. Maybe those are just my eyes, however.
FOURTH, in Monday’s Royals-Cardinals game, Esteban German dropped a bunt, and St. Louis starter Adam Wainright grabbed the ball and threw it neatly into right field for an error. German jogged to second. Minutes later, Wainright tried to pick off German and threw the ball into centerfield. German went to third. A couple of batters later, Emil Brown drove home German.
The official scorer announced (correctly) that it was an “unearned run.”
I’ve said it many times before, the rule that pitcher errors are treated the same as any other kind of error is absurd. That rule needs to be changed. Wainwright certainly earned that run. It’s probably one of the most earned runs of his career.
FIFTH, I was arguing with a buddy about which band was more influential, U2 or REM. We're both huge fans of both bands. And we both agree that U2 has held up longer -- their last album was way better than anything REM has put out since Automatic for the People. But there was time in the mid-to-late 1980s (I think) when they were neck and neck for best rock band in the world with REM (I think) taking a slight lead. And, even more, I think more bands tried to COPY REM.
U2 has been and remains a terrific band, and Bono is a social force and all. But if you ask me which band pushed the needle more -- that is, which band has had a larger effect on popular music and the directions pop has taken -- I think it's REM. My buddy slighlty disagreed, if you consider: "You're a complete idiot" to represent slight disagreement.
My five favorite U2 songs (no order):
1. Sunday Bloody Sunday
2. In God's Country
3. The City of Blinding Lights
4. Beautiful Day
5. I Still Havent Found What I'm Looking For (the one WITHOUT the choir)
My five favorite REM songs (no order):
1. Nightswimming
2. (Don't Go Back) To Rockville
3. It's The End Of the World as we Know it (And I Feel Fine)
4. Radio Free Europe
5. Belong
I was going to do something on four-man rotations. But I’m too tired in more ways than one. We’ll get to that next entry, if there is a next entry.
40 comments:
1) White Sox icon = Nellie Fox
2) I'd have to say U2 is much more influential. Achtung Baby appeared right when 80s rock had seemingly reached its limit, and then the Edge ushered in the 90s with that riff fro m "The Fly."
I like how the main gist of my comment on a baseball blog is about music. Always enjoy reading the blog, Joe.
1. First of all, let me say that in my humble opinion this is the best baseball blog by a mile (and yes, I purchased the book because of it).
2. I know that the stats don't justify it, but, for the Mets, I say that Keith Hernandez is the icon. He cemented it with the Seinfeld appearances.
3. Expos - TIM RAINES.
4. U2. Better and more influential (as musicians, before the political/social stuff began).
Aryeh
Israel
Did you see where Chone Figgins was 6 for 6 against my Astros last night? I got so upset that I went to IHOP at about 1am in Pearland, TX and ate three servings of the "Rooty Tooty Fresh and Fruity" platter. I felt like a pear after that. I later stopped by the local watering hole right before the 2am last call and downed several shots of the special "house blend" whiskey. That made me feel a little better. Anyway, I still haven't gotten to sleep yet. I'm afraid the Stros bullpen doesn't have the guns we had in '86 with Aurelio Lopez and me to hold a 5 run 7th inning lead. I'm available in cash GM Purpura wants to give me a call. My number is 1-800-KERFELD.
I disagree about the earned/unearned runs distinction with pitchers. True, when a pitcher makes errors like Wainwright did, he is "earning" the run per se, meaning he is truly bring the run upon himself. But Earned Run Average is a stat designed to determine a pitcher's effectiveness at pitching, not his effectiveness at pitching and fielding.
Great blog by the way.
Joe,
I'm curious. You won't tell Phillie fans who their icon is and you won't choose Cobb for the Tigers because of his unsavory rep, yet despite hearing from Reds' fans who want someone other than Rose representing our team, you saddle us with the lying scumbag anyway. Seems to be a lack of consistency in your logic.
1) I agree with Rock Rains in Montreal. #2 Dawson (should be in the HoF) #3 Gary Carter...he won a world series with the Mets.
2) It was a nice article in the Omaha paper this weekend. How about a book signing up here? Actually, right now during the College World Series would have been a great time, but we'll take you at a book store sometime too.
I don't know how Milwaukee's icon could be anyone but Robin Yount. The guy is an icon in that city, very similar to George Brett in KC. Eddie and Hank were great but Yount's the #1 icon.
1. I bought your book for my dad for Father's Day, and got my friend to do the same.
2. I have to agree with Tim Raines (he was "Tim" for most of his time with the Expos) as the rep for Montreal.
Oh, and if R.E.M.'s drummer didn't quit to "spend time with his family," REM would have stayed a lot more relevant.
My favorite REM song is a more recent one---Bad Day. The video is outstanding.
Your last statement is a little disturbing. I know it's a lot of work, but your blog is one of the best. I hope you don't give it up. But if not doing the blog allows you time to write a Musial book, I could live with that.
My take: Despite both coming up in the 80s, U2 and REM had different periods of influence. REM's was more immediate, heralding the emergence of jangle pop, alternative rock, and ultimately indie pop/rock. I've always thought that most late 80s to early 90s alternative rockers not wearing flannel owed at least something to REM and the DIY aesthetic has lasted a lot longer.
U2 didn't really start to have followers until later. Most Brit-pop in the 80s owed more to The Police and later The Smiths. Then--and I should mention again that this is all my, surely flawed, perception--an entire generation seemed to skip right past being influenced by U2 into being sort of neo-Beatles revivalists (like Oasis, etc.) Only after the death knell of this movement did the rise of vaguely U2-y bands like Coldplay start popping up. Now there are even some American Bands--say, Mutemath--that sound like U2. What is weird about this is that no one sounds like early U2, but a host of people sound like Zooropa and Pop-era U2. This seems profoundly strange to me as those albums aren't very good. It would be like finding a writer who was influenced by Good as Gold rather than Catch-22. Sure, there are moments, but really?
(As a brief aside, I would also argue that a band like Coldplay has actually influenced U2 more than vice versa. In this, their second coming, U2 doesn't seem to be above reinventing themselves to sound a little more like what the kids like. Nothing wrong with that).
I guess the point is, if you are going to go entirely on the question of influence (not quality, relevance, etc.) then it has to be REM. At least in America.
Love the blog.
"Every big town has room enough for more than one icon, and Frank is on Kansas City’s Mount Rushmore. But I think if you’re picking one, you pick George."
I found this quote interesting for one specific reason. Didn't the KC Star do a big spread identifying the Mount Rushmore of KC sport a couple of years ago? And they hired an artist to draw the picture. It was Brett, Tom Watson, Buck, and Len Dawson. I think you might have even written part of the article for the piece. You'll notice that even on KC's Mount Rushmore, there still wasn't room for Frank White.
Let's be clear, he was a fine player. But during the six years that I lived in KC (2000-06), I got the impression that he was lionized because everything that had come after him had been so absolutely atrocious.
Thank you for the blog. Reading your column in the paper (it's just not the same online, is it?) is on the list of top five things that I miss from KC:
1. Oklahoma Joe's
2. Minsky's
3. Joe Po's columns
4. The Plaza on a Spring night
5. Running on the Trolley Trail
I love the blog, love the writing, the attitude, and the spirit.
But I have to say, although it wasn't a surprise, that it's a sad day for America's chattering classes when REM is defended in any way, shape, or form.
U2 is overrated, I'm hardly a fan, but they're certainly better and more influential than REM -- the essence of pretentious, depressed 15-year-old girl pseudo-rock that's not joyful or rocking enough to be pop or rock, and not musically good enough to be anything else. REM typifies the sort of band summed up in Frank Zappa's "Tinseltown Rebellion."
A blog proomting to a book about a black baseball icon defends one of the least funky bands in pop music history? REM is whiter than the Republican National convention, and almost as white as Lilith Fair.
Ok, I hate to disagree with you twice about icons, but I can't help it. I think you may need to slightly reword your Milwaukee icon section. Milwaukee Brewers - started in 1969 after the Seattle Pilots moved to Milwaukee. Milwaukee Braves - started in 1953 when the Boston Braves moved to Milwaukee. Ended in 1965 when they moved to Atlanta. You listed the Milwaukee Brewers as the Milwaukee team in question. Hank Aaron hit 22 home runs as a Brewer and Eddie Mathews hit zero home runs as a Brewer. Robin Yount hit 251 home runs as a Brewer. I'll take Yount as the Brewer icon.
Second: I completely agree with you about the pitchers committing errors should be earned runs. If the pitcher makes a bad pitch...earned run. If the pitcher makes a bad throw, it should also be an earned run. Petition signed!
Third: I do have the book and LOVE it!!!!
Icons: how do post-career broadcasting careers factor in one's analysis?
For example, no one is going to challenge George Brett in the "icon" status? But you know, Len Dawson not only was synonymous with the Chiefs' success in the 60s, but listening to him do games post-retirement (and the fact that he's been on local news for a quarter of a century) makes him more of an icon. Paul Splittorpf (sp.) is more of an Royals icon than McRae to an entire generation of Royals fans, which was unthinkable when both retired.
And REM: I dunno, I thought Leaving New York was a pretty song and I think it is a newer one.
PS: No discussion of four man rotations can be complete without Bob Boone's experiment, which actually *made sense*, imho (hey, if you're going to lose your young arms when they are eligible for f-agency, why not use them maximize their innings while they pitch for you?).
When I think of the Expos, I think of Felipe Alou.
Totally agree on U2/REM. It might actually be a testament to U2's awesomeness that most bands didn't even try to do what they were doing.
Disagree on ERA, though. Used to agree strongly, but ERA is not meant to attach blame for runs to a specific person, it's for attaching blame to a specific action - pitching. The stat measures (to the degree it can) how effectively somebody pitched. Tho for my money when a pitcher retires the first two batters and then an infielder boots a ground ball and five runs end up scoring that inning, not all five can really be pinned on the one error and you have to start looking at the pitcher at some point.
I can't think of Cubs baseball without thinking of Harry Caray, for what that's worth.
Also, REM was a better band, but U2 was probably more influential. Kind of like how Wilco is the better band, but Linkin Park is more influential.
I wanted to chime in, stupidly it appears, on the Yankees icon. I think Babe Ruth is THE icon for baseball, hands down, but if you asked Yankees fans, they would talk about Joe DiMaggio and Mickey Mantle.
Granted, like with Cobb, there's a qualifier: "Of course, Babe Ruth was a Yankee, but..." Just seems to me, if you define icon as a beloved figure, the real fight is between the Mick and Joe D.
As for U2 vs REM, I've never seen the "influence" of U2's music, they've been more of a musical and commercial juggernaut as opposed to a tremendous influnce.
Contrast that to REM, who are the icons of indie rock, thus giving us Nirvana and Pearl Jam, thus giving us the wide array of music that is available online. You can argue all you want that The Pixies or The Smiths or any number of bands were more "influential," all of that is rubbish without REM's breakthrough.
Did U2 lead to Coldplay? Probably. But REM led to Wilco, and I'll take that any day of the week.
PS - kudos to the poster who was able to compare REM to both an ultra-conservative Republican National Convention AND an ultra-liberal Lilith Fair. Leaves a lot of room in the middle!
As a thirty-three year-old Baltimorean, I got left out of the icon argument (it was obviously Cal, though we do love Brooks). So I'm glad to enter into U2 v. REM.
U2 was certainly more popular than REM, but they really weren't all that influential. Meanwhile, REM was the poster child for "college rock" which became "alternative" and has now settled into "indie rock". U2 is a commercial juggernaut, but REM is the artisitic juggernaut, making punk somehow acceptable to middle America (not that there weren't great punkers from the Midwest, but they didn't put out jangly pop tunes).
But neither had the influence of the Pixies or Fugazi, who lurk in the background as the Velvet Undergound of my generation. To paraphrase the old quote, only 1000 people bought the album, but they all formed bands.
dirktheturk-
I was probably wrong to call U2 more influential. They were/are definitely more popular, and I feel confidant in saying that they have probably had more influence on non-musicians than has REM. U2 may have had more influence on culture as a whole.
poseur-
As for bringing punk to middle America, am I wrong to think The Replacements had a pretty big role?
Duggan is a KC fan and NOT a U2 fan. Maybe that is why he loves your dorky blog so much. E85 is NOT biodiesel.
Just tremendous stuff out of you. Where have you been all my life? Le screwed made me laugh-out-loud. Heck, I downloaded Sinatra's Coffee Song on your recommendation alone and my mind has been in Rio ever since.
Thanks much!
www.theghoulpool.blogspot.com
I would just like to ask you to keep writing the blog (I am going to buy the book as soon as I can). I check back daily hoping for updates and read your column in The Star between blog posts. Thanks.
Two thoughts on icons.
1. Detroit: The mention of Yzerman as a Detroit icon was warranted but if there's one hockey icon from Detroit, it has to be MR. Hockey, Gordie Howe.
2. Cleveland: For all-time, all-sport, all-everything icon, nobody touches Jim Brown. Unlike you I've been to Cleveland only once in my life and even I understand this.
3. Keep up the good work. This blog is the best in all blogdom. You, Mr. Posnanski, are in fact Mr. Blog, the icon of Blog.
One, please no music here. I am restraining myself bodily from comment, but this is just not the place for it.
Two: Willie Mays, Willie Mays, Willie Mays. Thank you. Marichal has his moments, but.. Willie Mays, Willie Mays, Willie Mays.
[PS, I failed, so as someone who has several thousand LPs in his garage (~7,000, but who's counting?), I think I authoritatively can state: you are all wrong about music. But do go to a music blog and argue there.]
The REM song of all REM songs is "Find the River."
Though the Marlins still do not have one player who has started out with them and then gone on to have a HOF career, I do believe they have an obvious choice for icon.... Chuckie Carr! Ok, so maybe not, but I would say Jeff Conine has to be the man. After all, he is called Mr. Marlin. He was with the team for both championships. He may not be a HOF'er, but he is ours! (even though he has plyed for 4 other teams)
I don't know who was the more influential band, but U2 is definitely the better one in my book. I would put Desire in my top 5 list of U2 songs. REM doesn't get a top 5 in my opinion. I refuse to recognize them after they released Shiny Happy People, one of the worst songs ever recorded! I would also put Barbie girl, I'm too sexy, Rico Suave, and that stupid "tin roof, rusted" song on a list of songs that want to make me vommit.
Going back to your blog of the top 25 most exciting players, I still am dumbfounded on how Hanley Ramirez was not in your top 3 let alone the top 25! How is this possible? In my book, he is number one. My formula goes a little like this... Is he awesome? Yes, he is the most awesome. Does he play for an awesome team? Yes, he plays for the most awesome team. Therefore he is the awesomest! #1. BTW, Miggy wasn't on that list either. Did his errors and lack of stolen bases knock him off?
Thanks, and keep up the awesome work. And BTW #2, I really do live in Yemen. Looks like your blog is Global!
I enjoyed the REM vs U2 debate. I like both groups but feel REM at their peak was better. I'm also glad you had Night Swimming at the top of your list because I too love that song. I might also nominate The Great Beyond. It seemed that was their last really great song.
I also really hope this isn't the end of your blog. I have really enjoyed passing around some of your stuff to my buddies. Everyone thinks it's great.
Sorry for second post, but wanted to clarify something for the anonymous poster who rightfully said Bad Day is a top 5 REM song.
Bad Day is actually from the Life's Rich Pageant era, it was originally called "PSA (Public Service Announcement)". One of the several recordings of this version is available on the bonus disc to their IRS greatest hits cd.
Instead of continuing down the Todd Helton road in a quest for another .400 hitter, why not find somebody else who might be able to accomplish the feat in the next 5 seasons? Or at least a list of potentials.
Nobody's commented on the birds? I've had birds do the kamikaze thing to me many times, but they were protecting a nest the formed on my deck. Also had a bird that sat on my grill, which is next to a window, and repeatedly bash into said window, sit on the grill, poop, bash into window, poop on grill, bash...well, you get the idea. Birds are dumb.
Icons:
1) Baltimore: Boog is the icon, followed by Brooks, Cal and then Jim Palmer.
2) Montreal: Le Grande Orange: Rusty Staub
3) Mets: Its Tom Terrific, nobody else comes close, not even Gil Hodges, who is second.
Kenneth, err, Joe,! What's the Frequency!?!
You're blog is sending radio waves to my head! Get it out.
- Your buddy, Dan
Joe,
To have no favorite U2 song from the album Achtung Baby tells me that you just like REM more than U2.
If you have seen them both in concert (and I have) U2 shows why they have had a bigger impact on popular music and the directions pop has taken.
What band has gone through as many different musical variations as U2?
The U2 in the 80's is different than the U2 of the 90's.
And I could rip off a list of bands that have tried to replicate what U2 does. Everybody has copied the band's style of building momentum in a song for the last 20 years.
I will not go as far as your friend to disagree with you, but just the fact that U2 is as relevant now as they were in 1980 tips the scales far in the favor of U2 as being the band that has had the larger effect on pop music.
Icons:
Colorado - Why not Larry Walker? He was more of an all around player than Helton and was the best player on the very iconic Blake Street Bombers teams.
Tampa - I nominate B.J. Upton. When you combine the mismanagement of his early career, the fact that he seemed to get it just when everybody was ready to give up on him, and his now promising future, you have the history of the franchise embodied.
Here are a few opinions on team icons:
1. Rusty Staub was the original icon for the Expos, but Gary Carter is the modern choice.
2. While Puckett was a charmer, how can Rod Carew not be the Twins icon.
3. For "all sports" in Detroit, it's got to be Mr. Hockey, Gordie Howe. For baseball, it's easily Kaline.
4. And in Florida, Cabrera's coming on fast, but it's still Jeff Conine.
Nightswimming, followed by Find the River, what an end to that CD.
Joe, Love the blog. I think you were a bit harsh on Tony LaRussa in terms of his taking the fun out of streaks. Maybe you don't recall this littl gem from opening day last year, and Jimmy Rollins hit streak.
Not saying Tony is a saint, or that he wouldn't intentionally walk a guy in a streak during a penant race, but....
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sportsscope/2006/04/rollins_can_tha.html
Just stumbled across your blog yesterday... great stuff.
Joe Carter is Toronto's guy, but Stieb is a very close second.
Honourable mention could be given for several other guys from the 85, 92, and 93 juggernauts.
Have to start with the requisite LOVE THE BLOG, because I do.
Interesting that there were more comments on Expos icons than Blue Jays. Steib is it but Alomar, Carter, Olerud, Molitor all would be good choices if they'd lasted a little longer. And didn't spit on umpires. Wells and Halladay will be on the list too but without any championships they'll just be good/great players that fans love because they came through the system. Of course, we're talking about Toronto so championships aren't part of any hero criteria, just look at Doug Gilmour. Zing.
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